Episode 42 – Never the Same Melody Twice with Akram Abdulfattah
Companion listening
Fancy following a few of these musical threads? Start with Akram’s solo violin, compare two recordings of “Saba Rock”, then explore related music from Simon Shaheen & Qantara, Kayhan Kalhor with Brooklyn Rider, and Anouar Brahem. These are further-listening selections inspired by our conversation, rather than the exact performances heard in the episode.
Open the companion playlist in Spotify · 7 tracks, about 38 minutes.
Three things to listen for
- Rast and Bayat: follow where each phrase comes to rest. How do the slides, held notes and little turns change the feeling?
- The two Saba Rock recordings: find a phrase you recognise in both. What stays the same, and what changes in its timing, decoration or accompaniment?
- The Astounding Eyes Of Rita: compare the plucked oud with the breath and sustain of the bass clarinet. What makes each instrument sound like a voice?
Akram Abdulfattah joins me with his six-string violin to explore Arabic music, the expressive possibilities between familiar notes, and why learning a melody can mean learning to change it.
Hello, musically curious people
How much can you change a melody before it becomes something else?
When Palestinian-American violinist and composer Akram Abdulfattah was learning traditional tunes with his uncle, variation was part of the game. The melody was there to be recognised, but also to be played with. Learning the tune and finding your own way through it belonged together.
I met Akram at WOMEX in Finland in 2025, and this conversation moves between those two things: the musical knowledge we inherit and the decisions we make in the moment. His music draws on Arabic traditions alongside influences from Turkish, Persian and Indian music, rock and jazz. With his violin to hand, he can let us hear what he means as well as explain it.
We start with maqam. It's tempting to reach for the word “scale”, particularly if that's how you've been taught to think about music. But Akram describes something that involves movement, mood and the way a melody unfolds, as well as a collection of notes. He demonstrates pitches between the familiar piano keys, and we talk about why even the idea of dividing an octave needs a little care when you move between musical traditions.
Then there is the violin itself. Akram's has six strings, extending down into a register you might not expect from an instrument tucked under someone's chin. That opens up new possibilities, but it also asks him to rethink the physical business of playing: where his fingers go, how he moves the bow and how he shifts between different musical habits. He plays an original solo composition, and we explore the violin's ability to slide, bend and speak in ways that feel close to the human voice.
Towards the end, the questions get bigger. What is music for? What does it mean to carry a musical tradition when your identity is bound up with several places, and when that identity is under pressure? Akram talks about family, being Palestinian-American, the music industry and the importance of making space for people to listen to something unfamiliar.
There's plenty to listen out for here, but you don't need to name every note. Try following what stays recognisable as a phrase changes. Where does it settle? What gives it its character? And what happens when the player takes a slightly different route the next time round?
In this episode
Akram's Arabic musical roots and wider influences.
Why a maqam is more than a scale.
Tarab and the emotional experience of music.
Hearing pitches between the familiar notes.
Learning the rules and finding freedom in performance.
A childhood game of melodic variation.
The extra range of a six-string violin.
Adjusting bowing and fingering to an unusual instrument.
An original solo performance.
The violin and the human voice.
Music, family and feeling human.
Palestinian-American identity and musical inheritance.
Making a living and finding listeners.
Becoming more adventurous in what we listen to.
Music in this episode
Live performance excerpts featuring Akram Abdulfattah at WOMEX 2025.
An original solo composition performed by Akram during our conversation.
Short violin demonstrations of maqam, microtones and melodic variation.
Links and references
Akram Abdulfattah's official website
Akram's listening and social links
Support the show
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Stay musically curious.
Full transcript
Hello. My name is Steve Pretty. I'm a musician, composer and performer from London. And welcome to my podcast, Steve Pretty on the origin of the pieces.
This is the show that helps you to hear, understand and enjoy music in new ways.
hello musically curious people. It's lovely to be back in your ears after just two weeks. I told you that I will be back on track and here we are. Good to my word for once.
It's nice to be back on track with the with the release schedule. I try and release these every two weeks, but sometimes life gets in the way as it has a lot this year. Anyway, today's episode I have an interview with the amazing musician Akram Abdulfattah, who is a wonderful Palestinian composer and violinist, and we met at WOMEX last year.
WOMEX is the kind of world music trade fair. Its musicians come from all over the world and showcase their their abilities and their talents and their compositions and playing. And I interviewed loads of fantastic musicians last year in 2025, and Akram was one of them.
We had a really, really fascinating chat about Arabic music and the sort of music that he makes. We talked about tradition versus innovation. We talked about his extraordinary violin, which is a completely unique instrument that was built for him. It's a six string violin, which we'll dig into in a bit.
And also we talked about the role of music for a Palestinian musician and recording this in a week where Ed Sheeran has been in a lot of controversy.
Some of you, I'm sure, will be aware of this. But he, sacked Macklemore, who was his support act from his tour for openly supporting Palestine and saying Free Palestine on stage and things. It's been a big story in the media. I'm not going to dig into the ins and outs of that there. I'm sure you have your own opinions on it, but I just wanted to platform a wonderful Palestinian musician who's making incredible music under some quite difficult circumstances.
He talks a lot about identity, about how his identity as an American Palestinian dual nationality, actually, he's also got Israeli citizenship, about, you know, about the different responsibilities and challenges that that presents.
But also we mainly just talked about music and the beautiful music that he makes and the responsibilities he sees in doing so.
before we get into the interview proper, here's a little excerpt of his incredible performance at WOMEX 2025.
This is Akram Abdulfattah, live in Finland.
Thanks so much for joining me. Would you mind explaining who you are and why we're chatting? My name is a Palestinian musician. Born in America. I focus on multinational and cross culture. Projects and the a try to represent my music in a modernized fashion. Okay, interesting.
We'll come back to the the modernized fashion. And we're here at, at WOMEX World Music and Expo, and you have a a showcase tonight. Right. So I've not yet seen you play, but I'm very excited about it tonight. It's midnight tonight, right? And. Yeah. Is it going to be a long day? You only just got here, right?
Yes. And you came here from Palestine today. You said. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Tough journey. It's a long one. Yes, I can imagine. Yeah. Is it lots of hops to get? Yeah. It's. You have to change a lot. Of transportation, of course. Yeah. Well, welcome. I'm glad you've. You've made it. Made it here. Okay. So.
Yeah, I wanted to talk about a couple of different things. There's two different strands of the podcast that it's particularly relevant to. One of which is called the tombola, where I look at different genres from all over the world and, and examine how they work and, you know, and the second of which is called Entertaining Noises, where I look at instruments and how they work.
So maybe we should start by talking about what sort of you play. I know is always a difficult question for a musician, but like how how do you categorize your own music? You know, it's Arabic rooted because that's what my, that's what I was trained all the time since childhood. It's, the Arabic, a classical and folk a that I later on when I got studying the other genres.
Like, classical Western violin. Also some Turkish and Persian influences. And then traveling to India, a being born in the States. All these kind of mix. It, it mirrors through music, through what I do. So it's, it's, it's a, it's Arabic kind of based, but it's, branching to a different genres.
So I play also a, a like a kind of, rock sound sometimes, and sometimes it's a more of a of a jazz sound. So it's like, playing with all the genres, but it's still Arabic-rooted. That's my,
So when you say Arabic rooted, what? How do you categorize that? What makes what makes it Arabic rooted? Yeah. Arabic music is based on, you know, maqams and scales, which are very important to know and study. So, the microtonal kind of things, which is we have like, of course. More wider kind of, range with the, with the tones that we can produce in the music that are, absent in other, other cultures, like the half flat and half sharp, all these kind of, notes between the notes.
So there's two things just, Sorry. Before we go further, we should explain a little bit. The first is maqam and could you just explain a little bit more about that. Is kind of a, a kind of a mood. It's like maybe compared to the raga in India could be like some comparison there because it's a mood.
It's not a scale only it's a mood. And it's usually very based on improvisation. A soma is basically a scale, but what we call it a because it has a lot in depth to the scale. So how to produce the, the maqam and the instrument, how to represent it to the, to the audience, all these techniques.
Considered maqam. So, learning the maqam is like the first step for Arabic musician. And again, it's, as you say, it sounds like similar to the Indian raga system, where I found it very interesting that we have this idea of in Western music, we think of as scale. As you say, you think, oh, it's major scale.
Minor scale is whatever it might be, or even even a mode, which we've covered a bit on the podcast. But, but is sort of that plus a whole load of other things. Right. The, the, the, embellishments, the mood that you're trying to create and the whole kind of movement. How to tell how to represent it.
How to compose also on the maqam. It really depends on the heritage and how you learn the the history of it. Interesting. So it's like a, it's this whole a kind of holistic approach to rather than the scale just being one of the ingredients of, of a piece of music. It's like right. Well, yeah, that's the thing we're coming to next.
But but the it's like the entire kind of feeling of a. Right. Just like we, we have a name for that feeling when it's produced. Well, you will get the feeling of okay. Okay. Is that a word when you feel like, orgasm from music. Okay. Right, right, right. Like, this is so beautiful. I feel like Allah. You say Allah, say God.
We mentioned God when you feel music is touching us. So it's spiritual too. Interesting. Okay. Okay. That's. And again, my, experience with, Indian music and playing a bit of Indian music is a very similar thing with the raga system. And they take their time, you know? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And, and they played in particular times of day particularly, you know, you don't always play.
It's not like a major scale for the morning. And you know, it's like a whole whole system of understanding the music. So coming on to the the more microtonal things, as you say, again, please stop me. Any of this is wrong, but the the octave. So ma bar is, is a kind of a universal amongst many, almost all musical systems, as far as I understand in the world.
But how you divide up that octave is very, very different, right? And so in with a piano, western piano, you have 12 semitones, as you say. And but then that's just one of many, many ways of dividing up the scale, the octave or other. And yeah, the we were talking about with microtones, it's. Yeah, it's just a different way of dividing up that, that way.
And also I wanted to just mention that, the, the microtones also could be shifting sometimes slightly between maqams like the same note, let's say a half flat could be very different from account to another. It's not said. It's not like a one half interesting. And it's. Yeah, it depends on. Right. And, like the, the style you want to play with.
Interesting. Well, you, you have your instrument here. I wondered if you might just be able to demonstrate. Firstly, if you could just play an octave to start with, just so that people get a sense of that. Yeah. First of all, this is not a classical. Can we come? I'd love to come and talk more about the instrument shortly, but here, low notes and then like I see, I see, I see.
Yeah, we were talking about the. This is an amazing, amazing looking instrument. So I'll play one. Maybe if you could play an octave first with just, just the octave so that we can hear what that is.
Lovely. And then could you just play a like a major scale Western major scale, please.
Beautiful. So that's what we would think of as a as a major scale. Sorry to ask one more thing, but could we play a chromatic scale? So that's, that's dividing the octave up into one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, which is how we hear the major scale. But here we have the 12.
That's it.
So that's how normally I would think about music or people trained in a Western system think about music with a 12 semitones. Could you now play I appreciate your differs from someone, but could you perhaps play a version of that that would play a play that, the, the first, more common Arabic music, which is the major more okay.
And it's the same kind of but you will feel the difference from C I'm trying C so.
Interesting.
And there's even though that's the same division if you like, there's still eight notes in that in that the there's some subtle differences right on the three and the seven seventh. Yeah. Yeah. Which sounds just slightly, slightly different. Could we, could you just play those again and just sort of emphasize those so that, that note there is very interesting because that's sort of halfway between the major and the minor.
Right? Yeah. For this. Yeah. Yeah.
So what you just played was the minor and then the major and then the half. Yeah. So in other words, what we call flattened 31, one, two, three is a major third one two flat and three minor third and then the half.
Yeah. It's so it's so characteristic. I interviewed a oud player last year and we talked similar a similar idea. So, so interesting. And then so within other other becomes you could play that divide the scale into smaller steps of steps. Of course.
We can from the same note. You mean, if possible. Yeah. Just what we we can, play this.
I love that that last. That second is so nice. I like the D is the second is half flat. It's half flat as well. Yeah. It's it's really evocative. Very, very close to it. It's very close to the other one. But that still has eight notes. Right. But and so most have eight notes or they. Yeah. Most of them we are like more a maybe most of the most of the scales are eight.
There's maybe a few more comes with all they have like very special thing where they are not complete. They're not eight. They're not cut off. I will show you like for example, if I'm gonna, start a scale from this note.
Okay, this is the octave of it, but we don't reach the octave. If we play the sub, it's like.
Interesting. Wow. And you don't ever play the upper. You play the upper. If you want to continue to want to start it right, right, right up. But you don't. But it's not part of the let's go. Right, right, right. So you wouldn't you wouldn't play a phrase with the upper one in it. If you were going to go back down again, you could.
The thing about Arabic music comparing to other Oriental like, the whole kind of east, if you want to say like Indian, Persian and more Far East. The Arabic music is the most, free music from this music's free in the sense of what? How you can do stuff that are not allowed. Right. Okay, okay. Can you can like, you don't have a a, a a a a strict way to produce or make a maqam or taxing base.
Probably if you do the classic ones, you will touch the people more. But if you do something different, it's okay. Meaning, like in other cultures, like Persian and Indian, they have a strict way to, to, to play the Middle East, to play the, the to play the phrases with the, all the kind of ornamentations. It should be like this.
But in Arabic music you have some kind of freedom. So if we're going to compare the freedom between these musics, Arabic is more free from that sense.
And when when you're talking about these melodies and things, I appreciate it may be different in your band because it's you playing your own music or you're playing traditional. Yeah, but
when, when you were, I guess when you were learning, you know, before you started playing your own music,
how much are you improvising is what I'm trying to say.
How different is it every time or have that much? Every concert is different. Yeah. I mean, improvising wise, it's always different. And, things come up on stage. Like, now even when, even when you're learning, you know, like how do you learn this, this system maybe teaching could be a good idea. When you teach you have to be very, very very strict with them, very strict to it and try to to be classical as much as it.
But in my music I try and I tend to not I, I revolt there. Yeah. Yeah I, I, I'm saying I do the same. Yeah I, I teach like I teach Arabic music in very high levels for Academy musicians. But it's not what I do on the stage now. But when I guess coming back to how you think about a melody, when you were learning this, when you were I guess a child.
Were you, you would learn the melody and there was like there was the kind of the, the right way to play it or it's still different every time as you're learning. At what point do you, improvise? Is it right from the beginning? Well, you know, it's hard to improvise for anybody as a start. So it's a it needs some kind of, training, but, improvisation, you know, improvisation it's it could be in a different.
Ways, you know, it could be an improvisational fully improvised. It could be improvising. Improvization could be when you do variations also. That's improvising. So let's talk about variations, for example. That's a very main and important thing to learn from the start and ornamentations how to. We don't play. The, the melody just as it is.
We always have something to add. And that's coming from a, a study. Of course it's not like just randomly, but that's like we teach this from the start. Yeah, I can represent represent for you like a small kind of phrase. And what we teach, what what could be done as a variations and improvisation. I would love to hear that.
That would be perfect. So this is like what I teach for my students. And, this is what I learned from my uncle, my first teacher. It's just a very, very traditional song. And the idea is just to try always, like, every time to do something different. And that's like, the challenge was like the game with the teacher.
So, this is the melody.
Okay.
So this is the melody played again.
So every time I will change now. Okay. For example.
Interesting. So the shape of the melody is still the same. Yeah. So the basic shape is the same. And they kind of core notes, but everything else is, is so different each time. And so it's. Yeah, it's very interesting. I was talking yesterday, I was interviewing the klezmer yesterday klezmer band and they were talking about something similar where the ornamentation isn't the only is the wrong word for it really like the in English because it suggests that.
Well, I mean, I think it's the right word. It's what we call it, but it suggests that you've got the tune and then the ornaments go on top. But actually it's a really fundamental part of the sound. Yeah. That's why it's important to learn it from the start. So it's not, you don't like, sort of learn the melody and then learn the notations on top.
You learn them. It's a of course any melody has its structure. You will find it if you want to. And I think it's a very good. Like I will say my from my experience of course, because there's, there may be, there might be a debate about how to learn this or teach it, but let's say in a, in a, in a general information, what you're saying is very important that the is part of the melody, but you can't produce the ornament if you don't know the melody very well or understand the maqam.
The maqam is not the only. It's the movement of the is the notes that are played now. La de la white star. White's tapping on F and then it's stopping on D. All these kind of things should a should be a of course explain to the to the to the student was the important of that note in the scale like the f note there and the d of course the desert.
But the F is a note where we can stop there. So that means like if you know these things, ornamentations are not really now important. It's just about wider and more and more like a structural or like how to build it. And then at some point, the, the student or the, the Arabic music, who I am, a student will automatically start doing these things because he feels and he wants to do it.
It's not a it's not systematic. All right. But in some levels, like academy levels, you will write ornamentation and you will you will be working on a more kind of a classical Western way, right? Right, right. You remember everything. And to make it a as a as a start. But then in professional way it will be very fluent.
Yeah. So you wouldn't write it down for. No no. No. Exactly. It's all. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Well we should come to this amazing instrument because you've been playing this and we it's, we must talk about it. So it looks, it looks like a violin. You have this lovely. Yeah. Tiger up here. This is very cool.
But of course, the most obvious thing for me as soon as you got it out as well, it doesn't have four strings.
Yeah, it's a string. Six string violin. It's a a a a a violin maker from New York. Who does this from New York? Oh, really? Okay. Yeah. It's, Eric is a really, a genius to make this happen.
It's of course, it will be jacked in for us, for, you know, amplification to produce a bigger sound. It's not usually played in an acoustic, fashion, but, it's a four string. And then we had the C and F added, so, like a viola and one first string of the cello. It was my, my idea to try to find kind of an instrument that has this low range because, I'm really in love with this low range.
And my my studies at the beginning was oud my, my father, my uncle, all oud players. So it's, I love these these low notes. And I was trying to make it happen with a viola d'amore and all these things, a big instrument, all that. But now it's like, I'm so happy with this. It's, very convenient and hard to a easy to to work with a still, it's, took some time to get used to it, but it's, this is the lowest.
Wow, FCG tuning like a GSOGDGD. So different tuning from a classical, Western violin. Yeah, the classical Western. But for, for Arabic music, we always tuned like this is from the, higher DGDG are interesting, but I, I chose to keep these as c and f to have floor. And so I have this which is like.
It's so lovely to be able to hear that that. Yeah that sort of mid low range from the viola. Kind of and then then you have the cello string. That's amazing.
It's so cool. But having that low range and I guess especially once you plug it in, that must gives you all sorts of possibilities. That's it. It's a big sound. Yeah, yeah, I can imagine. Once you dig in like that, you really get something, something special. And so this has some technical challenges, I imagine, to make a violin like this.
Oh, yeah. I'm sure. Eric. Yeah. Really hard time to get it done. And also for, for an for an artist to, like, all my life been playing four strings and then suddenly you have, like, these two strings. It's not a easy thing. It's like it needs a lot of, care. First time I got it, I was like, I am I sure I will be able to do this because, you feel like I'm starting from the start at some point.
So it took me like a few months just to play very, very, very. Just like sample notes. Try to play the right notes. On the bridge, you know, it's because the, the whole angle angles here when you see and you feel the violence just different and the fingers and the bow in the world because. So when you learned when you were a kid that you were learning on a traditional violin but tuned in the Arabic way like you don't.
Yeah, I, I always had the shifting between two worlds, to be honest. I violin and western kind of classical violin concertos and obesity and the like Western 18th century music. Yeah, yeah. Western music and Arabic. Arabic music. Yeah, yeah, it's. Yeah, it's really, it's really lovely. Lovely thing. Yeah, yeah. Look at that. Beautiful. Yeah. And I suppose we must have you play something, if that's okay.
Would you be able to to give us a little taste of something? I guess that that, emphasizes the range of the instrument. Yeah.
I'll play just like, a melody, which is considered, like, from a classical kind of, atmosphere. It's my composition. It's on a Phrygian kind of, scale. Phrygian. So this is a mode that we in Western classical music, we call it a, a mode which has a, a flattened number two. So one flattened, two flattened three.
Yeah.
It's a very traditional Arabic also, and very common also in the west east for the Turkish and Persian, but so all.
Oh so beautiful. That was so lovely. Thank you so much.
so expressive, you know, so, so much expression you have, you know, and I think we've talked quite a lot to string players in particular, or when you have this portamento.
Right. This and it's very vocal quality. It sounds like, it's a good point because, a violin. It's it, it it it, it got into the, the Arabic ensemble very late in the history we had before the name, like the flute and the Derby or the percussion. Rec. And then we had oud and that's like the the Arabic ensemble, then the violin, like in many places in the West, because of the British colonies and all that, the violin got really into our culture and the techniques to so many violinists.
Started to, also play in the Arabic ensemble and I think worldwide, this instrument, the violin is maybe the most important instruments for cultural music around the world because it's very close to the human sound, human vocal. I think every culture like where I've been, they use it as a very important instrument to, to reflect their music, because it's a very easy way to do it with the fretless and the bowing and the sound of the violin, which is close to the human tone.
Yeah, I think it's true. So when I said portamento earlier, that means the sliding around, right. Would you just be able to demonstrate a slide? I mean, obviously we've heard some lovely stuff was just a, just a nice long. Yeah. Yeah it's a really.
Whereas on a, on a piano or even on a trumpet. This is something that I'm a trumpet player and I like to try and imitate this. But you have, you know, these buttons, these valves. So it's you have to really kind of work hard to get those slides in, whereas because you press them down in the notes there or it's not.
So there are techniques you can do to develop that. But on the violin it's it's all built in. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's very
So I'm going to ask you two, more things if I may, and then we and then we must wrap up because I imagine you have a busy day ahead of your, your concert.
The first of which is a question that I've been asking most of my guests, which is, what's the point of music? Nice. Easy. Yeah. Nice. Easy way. Maybe. Maybe. Well, in my position, it's not easy to answer that, because I, Why we do music. To be honest, it's been, like last three years. Two years being very hard back home.
So for me, I'm just gonna talk from my perspective as I felt really at some point, the music was the only thing I can feel a real or human or I don't want to say feel okay, but just feel human, like connect with myself. It was the only thing. Other than of course, spending time with my newborn, which is was like a magical, kinda is my, like two years now daughter.
Other than that, and the family is like, the only thing you can do. And I think about this sometimes. I mean, why I do that? I don't have, like, a really difficult answer. Why I do it. I've been doing it, like, a long time since I was born. The music was always in the home, but today I feel like it has many levels and layers to them.
Of course I do it because I want to do it, and I want to feel better when I play. That's my first thing to do. If I don't want to play, I don't play, I want to play. So that means, like it. It has its influence on me personally. And then you think about it on a different on a higher level, where you are sharing the music with other listeners.
And what does that make and what does that represent? So for me, it represents a really a a big story and history that I really invite everybody to learn about and not me personally about my people and why, why, why? For people who are targeted would be really into music and trying to, kind of, share their feelings and stories through music.
I have a, I have a, I have a, a an idea that I think Im in, in, in, in writing and music and literature, literature, any anything that is a culture. I think this is a very big and important tool
for people under a, a, a, a annihilation, I would say. So that's, that's an identity
that I'm trying to reserve, preserve and trying to share from a human level.
That's why I do it. So it's a personal and, collective. Do you feel, as a Palestinian American in particular, do you feel the, your sense of identity as, as both of those, you know, having both of those heritages, do you feel any tension between them, or do you feel the responsibility to represent one of the tension?
It doesn't make sense to be both. It doesn't make sense. In what sense? Well.
It's obvious. I mean, well, America has been a big part of the politics in Middle East, and they ruined everything there. So I'm, I've been in the, in America, and I moved with my parents when I was six years old. So I have just snapshots from new Jersey and New Brunswick and my home there later on.
I've been visiting their friends and stuff, but it's I don't consider myself completely American, of course, and I don't I even.
For years I don't speak in the accent of American I, I chose that and, it's it's, I feel like it's a huge conflict between having two identities in the same, what's more funny that I have an Israeli passport. ID is more complicated. So it's like, it's a really, it's it's it's a it's a conflicted thing to to have these nationalities, but I don't call them I it's not who I am.
It's just on papers. Yes. Of course. Yeah, yeah. But do you feel that the music. But through through your music, you're, you're addressing some of those tensions? Of course. Yeah. Through music, first of all. Like, why would I be into rock or anything in of these genres? And why I'm really like, when I feel, when I hear rock n roll or anything like that, and I can call stuff like that, I feel like I know this music very well.
I feel it, I feel it like as I told, like I feel like the feeling of it. That's definitely why a because I was, was there a, a geographically I was like in, in that place physically meaning sorry. And the when, when, when I play my music, I think it's, it's as I said in the intro, it's really if you if used from all these worlds together and at some point they just come up with one identity that it's me.
It's not American or Palestinian or whatever. It's just music that's interesting. Yeah. Thank you. That's that's. Yeah. So, so interesting to have that tension there. I suppose I have one more question, which I'm just starting to ask people now, and that is, how the show is called origin of the pieces. So after Charles Darwin, origin of the species.
So it's about, you know, I'm very interested in how music evolves and why it evolves and the different changes. How do you think music's evolving now?
very important question. Definitely. I, I, I, I think about these, things sometimes when I, when I see, like, the music scene and like, let's, let's be honest, we're not going in a good direction. That's my feeling, especially when we talk about musicians living their life and trying to make music and be be alive.
That's definitely not a good position we're at now financially, you mean? Yeah, financial is everything. I mean, how we how they can live or make music or feel okay, about what they're doing, but also not only about the money. It's also the where the companies and everything is taking us with the relationship with the audiences or the audiences now, or the other people who are listening to music.
What's the what's kind of relationship we're having here? It's not good. It's becoming very, very materialism and very unreal and trendy. And it's not really following an artist. And like a long time ago. Right. So what people aren't really so it's become when you say materialist, it's become what people are doing as sort of almost as a status symbol or like a fashion thing or thing.
And it's a trendy thing sometimes. But let's say that in an other level, I would say many, many, many musicians are tending to go for not world music, but trying to not be in just one place. And that's, that's a that's what I was trying to say for ten years. Instrument why I do instrumental music. Because in, in, in that sense, you can really be able to, to get more kind of elements in your music and be very wide in the messaging and the sound with instrumental music.
Music lyrical is very it will it will narrow the imagination and narrow everything, in my opinion, of course. I've been working with many artists, singers, pop stars, but and I totally respect Arabic singing, but I'm very into instrumental music for many years and focusing only on that for the reason that I think in instrumental music you can bring different genres and worlds together.
And I think this is a tendency for many musicians around the world today that they want to, you know, share the music with the world. That's the idea. So of course, you people would love to hear folk music and stuff, but they now are more tend to new new things and new things. Meaning you have to get new things together that, never met.
Maybe make them meet.
And that's a good sign. Or that which is perfect. But at the same time, I'm saying like this other layer of people controlling the music industry and the other companies are just destroying that, experience that people should really be enjoying. We need to we need to hold up. Hold up a bastion of hope between us as musicians, I think.
I think, yeah, as musicians that sell responsibility. But then as audiences as well, I think people can make a choice to be more adventurous, have a responsibility. We don't want to be, like very pushy here. But I mean, this is, people who are listening to music. I mean, what would I expect? That maybe they know their artists better or, like, more look into these things behind the music.
That really makes it music. Well, this this is what I'm trying to do with the podcast is to try and expand people's understanding of music more generally, so that they have the tools to understand some of this music that might not be familiar to them, but they might enjoy and they might. This is the other thing about it is that often I think you can enjoy some not all music.
Some music is just, you know, you don't need to learn about it to get more out of it. But a lot of music, you get so much more out of it if you learn a bit. You don't need to be an expert, but, you know, understanding the system for me massively unlocked my my enjoyment and understanding of Arabic music, you know, and so and the same with Indian music and things once you.
And I'm no expert in any of those things. Of course. But I just have enough understanding to, to think, okay, this is the framework that they're operating in. And that's it gives you much more appreciation for it. So thank you for taking the time to explain your. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks so much. That's really fascinating. And have a great show tonight.
Nice. Thank you Steve.
and my huge thanks once again to the incredible Akram Abdulfattah for joining me and that interview we did about a year ago. Now, I should make clear, of course, that this was recorded about a year before the whole Ed Sheeran Macklemore Palestine Debate, but it felt relevant to platform a Palestinian artist under those circumstances.
So yeah, thanks to Akram for that fascinating chat and the absolutely beautiful performance. So interesting thinking about the the responsibilities that you have in that situation as a Palestinian American musician, and also from a musical point of view, the responsibilities towards both tradition and innovation. I think it's really it's really fascinating to to see the intersection of those things, to carry that tradition, particularly when you are a people under threat in all sorts of ways to carry that tradition and protect it, but also keep innovating.
And I think that's one of the great things that music can do. It can both preserve tradition and also work with tradition to develop something new. And it's very inspiring to to see Akram do that. Absolutely phenomenal band.
do check him out. He's got this tour coming up in the US. As I say, he's got loads of loads of stuff on socials and all the rest of it. So check him out. Once again, I intend to be back in your ears in a couple of weeks time. Going to get back stuck into some tombola stuff and, you know, kind of the old stuff that I was doing a year or so ago where I'm making more music myself and all that sort of thing.
Things have been so hectic that I've not had so much of a chance to do that, but I have very much intend to get back to making my own thing with this. And much as I love these interviews, I also want to sometimes, you know, do my own thing, make my own music in these different styles. The reason I haven't chosen the tombola subject recently is, frankly, just because I've got a huge backlog of them.
If you don't know what I'm talking about, this is where I choose a randomly or get a randomly chosen selected for me by the internet. And then I dig into it and then try and understand the music and try and make some music in that style sometimes. And so I'm going to get back to that kind of thing very soon.
But the live shows I've been doing and festivals and things we've been randomly choosing is for me to dig into. And so we've got some interesting ones coming up. If you've seen me at a live show, you'll know there's some quite weird and wonderful genres coming up, some of which I know a fair bit about, many of which I know nothing at all about.
So strap in for
Meanwhile though, just reminds me to say thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed the episode, please do go and rate it, review it, all that stuff. I haven't done a little push for that recently, but be great to get your feedback on whether you like the show and especially to share it.
Just tell someone that you know who you think might be into it, a musically curious person of whatever flavor, whether they're a musician or just someone who you know, you think might enjoy learning a little bit more about how music works and where it comes from and why even exists. So yeah, do share that with them. Go to my Patreon if you'd like to support the show.
That really helps, even if you just sign up for the for the mailing list there or on my website. Origin of the pieces. Com there's all of the back episodes on the website and a lot more besides. So go there, go to the Patreon and I promise I'm going to be uploading lots of juicy goodies to the Patreon soon after a bit of a lapse in the last few months, as is well documented here on the show.
Anyway, that's enough for now. I will speak to you in a couple of weeks. Meanwhile, stay musically curious. Bye.